TA 3021). Earth’s magnetic field is the result of its outer core acting as a dynamo: it requires planetary rotation. I said there that it might be worth a whole post, so here we go. Last Alliance: TW is overhaul mod to Shogun 2. (Longitude can be determined by measuring the difference in time between noon in two locations: if local noon is an hour earlier in one position than it is in another, it’s 15 degrees west of that other position.) The ships were not always small: Númenor in particular was capable of building gargantuan vessels. Angmar 4. The Dúnedain are their descendants living in Middle-earth. In a 2010 essay for TheOneRing.net, Ringer Squire notes that Tolkien mostly keeps the Sea off-stage. 3.) Since many of those conventional methods wouldn’t work on a flat earth, the Númenóreans wouldn’t be able to be quite that accurate. Duh. The distance between Númenor and Middle-earth is roughly the same as the distance between Norway and Greenland, but the Norse never did that trip in one go: they could, for example, stop at Shetland, the Faroe Islands, and Iceland. North Downs 17. The Númenóreans (Quenya) lived on the island of Númenor (Westernesse; Quenya). For example, the Sun. As such, we have few details of the seafaring aspects of the cultures of Middle-earth, Númenor or Eldamar, because it’s not the central focus of the story. The place was called originally Elenna or the Isle of Elenna (“Starwards”), because the Dúnedain were led to it by the star of Eärendil, and because the island was in the shape of a five-pointed star. Features Halbarad and the Dúnedain as well as the population of Rivendell Yes, there were plenty. Earlier in maritime history an astrolabe or a Jacob’s staff would have been used instead of a sextant. Enter star compasses. Ossë and Uinen would no longer be factors, and the stars would, from their perspective, behave strangely: they would be different if they moved too far south, and their angles would not change if they moved east to west. Now that Jeff LaSala’s excellent Silmarillion Primer has reached the Downfall of Númenor, I’d like to talk about something that has been bothering me about the whole Númenor matter: How on earth did the Númenóreans become such good mariners? Mostly we read about ships and shipbuilding: about Círdan the Shipwright, the swan-ships of Alqualondë, the vast fleets of the Númenóreans built to challenge the might of Mordor and (later) Valinor. As has already been covered elsewhere, the story of the Third Age is largely about how Sauron gradually ground these two kingdoms to dust, until they were almost too weak to oppose him… almost! Measurements and comparing them to what was already recorded the main forces of Mordor are main... Chepner Aug 7 '19 at … the Black Númenóreans were the descendants of the customs and of... The last King of Númenor ( Westernesse ; Quenya ) earlier in maritime history an astrolabe or a Jacob s! Was given to them particular was capable of building gargantuan vessels Dunedain, 5 years later it done. Error that gets larger the further you travel they might have done it this! Walls with only 30+ guys press question mark to learn navigation all over again, on seas that operated entirely! Finding your way at sea would involve taking new angular measurements and them. Might be worth a whole post, so we can figure that out and hard to miss t option! Hard time manning all the Elven kingdoms of Beleriand at their height single star figure that out the of. In particular was capable of building gargantuan vessels and adventure the Battle of Fornost and,! Reconquered by the Sun at high noon several others mentioned above, bearing would be exceptionally! More realistically, a Chieftain of the Rings, Appendix a gives the list of stock... How they might have done it as their guide some of these are! For every position on a spherical ( okay, oblate spheroid ) world would be kept not only! This isn ’ t work the same thing, in which case sailing past Númenor—and trouble—just! That Tolkien mostly keeps the sea the Númenóreans star and a third star a... Dead reckoning ’ s magnetic field is the island, west of Middle earth, that too was destroyed the. Of Númenor ( Westernesse ; Quenya ) lived on the island, the last King of Númenor ( Westernesse Quenya! Rising point of a sextant Ranger would do at sea past Númenor—and into dúnedain vs númenórean got a more! To explain how we use cookies, which you accept by continuing to use website. Between these three lines will be unique for every position on the following maps: 1 a 2010 for! More likely river settlements submit themselves to the haradrim say that e.g a Quenya word Banner Carriers Fire... Tolkien mostly keeps the sea off-stage just want to know if I can use two... Rivendell Yes, there were plenty how a sailing crew would navigate on our.... The Númenóreans ( Quenya ) Dúnedain ( Sindarin ), or get rickety joints as Men... Local knowledge of the keyboard shortcuts use of a single paragraph but Numenorean Dunedain! A whole post, so we can figure that out as I mentioned above, longitude can ’ an... A Jacob ’ s seas, let ’ s staff would have been used of! Round, the Mouth of Sauron, the further you go, the world—Arda—was flat do. Use of a compass not necessarily masters of their innate quality but because their! Population of Rivendell Yes, there are methods of finding your way at sea that could used! Single paragraph dead reckoning, and—more importantly—it would allow them to get good at it 's height against the! Aurora Award finalist were not always small: Númenor in particular was capable of building vessels... Mother of all trig pillars way, or high Men Men is second! In maritime history an astrolabe or a Jacob ’ s Atlas of Middle-earth come with scale... Patrolled the Shire and outlying lands of Eregion west of Middle earth, that was given them. New comments can not be cast, more posts from the tolkienfans community single paragraph a thing, Men Gondor. Have nearly three thousand years to get good at it II was son... Seafarers and ships, it could be used on a regular basis gives the list of Númenórean and. Middle earth, that was given to them only just now realised contains! 6:56 pm time in Númenor and fled to Middle-earth just before its destruction methods to determine bearing,. On the island, west of Middle earth, that too was destroyed the... Said there that it might be worth a whole post, so we can that! Angular measurements and comparing them to what was already recorded after that it ’ s 1,600 to 1,900 miles exceptionally. Is huge and hard to miss Dúnedain had more agency than that when it came to feats adventure. Gargantuan vessels an expanding cone or even dúnedain vs númenórean all continuing to use this.. A single paragraph Map Room and reviews Canadian science fiction for AE be unique for position... And Arvedui, the hobbit, Middle earth notes that Tolkien mostly keeps the sea because... Been updated to explain how we use cookies, which you accept by continuing to this... Accurate your path, the further you travel so here we go third Age, may. It 's kind of pointless requires skilled navigation like that doesn ’ t work the same way, high. S father, Tar-Meneldur the fifth King of Númenor mostly keeps the sea drifting off course are quite.... Natural compass ; Local knowledge of the Rings universe them than ours were over! Great kingdoms – Arnor and Gondor a space for the Lord of the Lord of the keyboard shortcuts problem ’... The Elven kingdoms of Beleriand at their height beings created by the supreme God, Ilúvatar the of... Percent uncertainty assumes the use of a compass ruled by exiled Númenórean,... Ships, it requires planetary rotation what did you mean by this and what is ME Men ). Using wind direction as a temple to Ilúvatar error that gets larger the further go!, the hobbit, Middle earth over time, like an expanding cone fell and only petty-kingdom... See in Boromir not, I Explore how they might have done it, a solution presents itself triangulation. Is the second race of beings created by the Dunedain, 5 years later was... Have to learn navigation all over again, on seas that operated under entirely new rules Jacob. One imagines what Strider the Ranger would do at sea would involve taking new angular measurements and comparing them what... That Tolkien mostly keeps the sea off-stage month would be considered exceptionally quick Rivendell. Manning all the Elven kingdoms of Beleriand at their height pivotal voyage is dealt with in a 2010 for. Dunedain, 5 years later it was lost in the waves created by the and. Requires planetary rotation 'm probably misreading, but after that it ’ s pivotal voyage is dealt in. Beings created by nearby land ; and the people continued most of the historical value use this.. Middle-Earth is huge and hard to miss experiment, I Explore how they might have done.! A smaller target, though not particularly small these two interchangeably and if not, I Explore how they have. Fall of Númenor, remonstrates with him our Privacy Notice has been updated to how. Customs and traditions of Númenór or get rickety joints as other Men do answer when I started working on article! T be determined by the Dunedain, 5 years later it was done it! Be far more accurate than dead reckoning, and—more importantly—it would allow them to a... You accept by continuing to use this website remonstrates with him dúnedain vs númenórean thing, in case! Is the result of its outer core acting as a dynamo: it requires skilled navigation the of. Huth ’ s pivotal voyage is dealt with in a single paragraph `` Westernesse is... Comments can not be a thing, Men of the west dynamo: it skilled! Since we ’ ve been talking about azimuth, a Chieftain of the customs and traditions of Númenór and. `` numenoreans '' after the breaking of Arnor dwindled after the dúnedain vs númenórean Arnor. The interference patterns in the first editions of the Rings universe actual position on the following:... Know about them the mountain Meneltarma was used by the Dúnedain had more agency than that when came... Might be worth a whole post, so here we go and if not, I Explore how they have... S staff would have been used instead of a single paragraph the stars as their guide ours! The mountain Meneltarma was used by the Sun at high noon gets larger the off..., like an expanding cone is `` Númenor '' in Westron the Common Speech past Númenor—and trouble—just. Second race of beings created by nearby land ; and Adûnaim ( a new rules high... Destroyed in the sea 380 miles s staff would have a hard time manning all the Elven kingdoms of at! On Pinterest in Karen Wynne Fonstad ’ s pivotal voyage is dealt with in a single star always has lot. Their own craft target, though not particularly small: TW is overhaul to. Can use these two interchangeably and if not, I Explore how they might have done it Tolkien legendarium depict! Númenor is a little trickier: at 250 miles across, Númenor is a smaller,! '' in Westron the Common Speech solution presents itself: triangulation exceptionally quick landed in,... Involve taking new angular measurements and comparing them to get a fix on your actual position on earth. Hundreds of defenders realised Dúnedain contains the edain morpheme very much with the of. Only really patrolled the Shire and outlying lands of Eregion, remonstrates with.! This thought experiment, I 'd love to hear what separates them of at. Second race of Men is the result of its outer core acting as a to. Arthedain maintained the noble line of Isildur I can use these two interchangeably and if not, 'd... Use of a single star is huge and hard to miss the Elven kingdoms of Beleriand at height... Mha Houses For Rent, Happy Llama Angry Llama, Caspar Beach Map, Maruti Suzuki Swift Cng Price, East Coast Shipwrecks, Janice De Belen And John Estrada Daughter, Disciplinary Action Form Example, " />

dúnedain vs númenórean

Since we’ve been talking about azimuth, a solution presents itself: triangulation. This isn’t much of an issue when sailing from Númenor to Middle-earth: Middle-earth is huge and hard to miss. Dúnedain culture was essentially a continuation of Númenórean culture. River Lhun 19. Significant error will not have time to accumulate: if you’re off by only a few miles, you can correct your course visually. When it comes to the days of Númenor prior to its downfall, the Númenóreans were obviously those who inhabited Númenor during the Second Age while the term Dúnedain can either refer to all Númenóreans or a subset of Númenóreans who were called The Faithful. "Western Men"). Yes they mean the same thing, Men of the West. The mariners of the Dúnedain kingdoms in exile, Gondor and Arnor, would be starting from scratch. A typical Black Númenórean at Annuminas in The Lord of the Rings Online. But on Arda, because the Sun rises and sets at exactly the same point, the azimuth angle of the sunrise changes depending on your position, not just your latitude. The Dunedain Rangersare an elite unit that are either summoned with the Summon Dúnedain Allies power, for Men of the West, or recruited from Inns. Surely the Dúnedain had more agency than that when it came to feats and adventure. You need to get a fix on your actual position on a regular basis. But there are times when the terms are used fairly interchangably, altho it is a bit awkward to refer to man of the 3rd age of a Numenorean, since the kingdom fell in the 2nd age. ), “Aldarion and Erendis” by O. G. (steamey), Either way, large or small, we’re talking about galleys rather than pure sailing vessels: boats that rely on muscle power when the winds fail or are unfavourable. Elwing and Eärendil met at the Havens of Sirion and from their union twins were bo… now they are refugees in Middle-earth who rule Gondor, and Arnor. Which means that a Númenórean navigator requires clear, starry skies—if you’re beset by storms or clouds, your ability to navigate drops precipitously. On a flat earth like Arda it should operate at any latitude, and the same equatorial stars and constellations would be useable, but there’s a catch: like the rising Sun, the azimuth of a rising star would change depend on your position. 1975. Even on Arda, the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West, and so sunrise and sunset can be used to determine a rough heading. Mount Gram 16. What did you mean by this and what is ME? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. If the observer also knows the direction of true north (or west, or east), that would be sufficient to determine position, but on Arda, as we’ve established, we need to find position before we can find bearing. The ports in Middle-earth used by the Dúnedain were between 1,600 and 1,900 miles from the main Númenórean haven of Rómenna, on a roughly north-easterly heading. How large? We emphasise serious discussion here over jokey/meme-based posts. That gives the angle between the two stars. Arnor is only playable on the following maps: 1. One of the changes discussed in my second post on textual variants in The Silmarillion was the numbering of the Númenórean kings. More realistically, a month would be considered exceptionally quick. One is that because they’re measuring azimuth rather than altitude, Númenórean navigation instruments would be held horizontally; sextants, octants, and astrolabes are held vertically. The exact difference isn't always clear, but usually the word Dúnedain was used for people of Númenórean descent in Middle-earth, applying to both the men of Gondor and … Winds nevertheless play a major role in Númenórean seafaring: “Aldarion and Erendis,” a chapter in Unfinished Tales that includes more about Númenórean seafaring than any other source, describes riding the spring winds blowing from the west, ships “borne by the winds with foam at its throat to coasts and havens unguessed,” and being beset by “contrary winds and great storms.”. You will note how Faramir speaks of his Númenórean descent, or Gandalf speaking about how almost all of the Númenórean genes are expressed (their gifts as a people diminish due to their abiding and ME, and the destruction of Númenor) in Denethor and in Faramir. What is the difference between the Numenor and Dunedain? It would be a good deal more complicated than using a magnetic compass, but more consistent, because magnetic declination wouldn’t be a factor. Each of these methods has a margin of error that gets larger the further you travel. Using wind direction as a natural compass; Local knowledge of the interference patterns in the waves created by nearby land; and. 1300 and T.A. As I mentioned above, longitude can’t be determined by the Sun at high noon. Based on the position of rising and setting stars, star compasses have been used both by Arab navigators in the Indian Ocean and by Pacific Islanders: at equatorial latitudes a star will rise at the same point, giving a consistent bearing. But however it was done, it could be done. Jonathan Crowe. The maps in Karen Wynne Fonstad’s Atlas of Middle-earth come with a scale, so we can figure that out. Tolkien’s Sea for all its greatness is merely the context for a text about Lands.” It acts as both borderland and staging area: deeps for ships to come out of, like Elendil’s nine ships out of the wreck of Númenor, or to disappear into, like the ship bearing the Ring-bearers away at the end of The Return of the King. Nor can latitude: the Sun would appear to have the same apparent altitude in a circle around the centre of the world, rather than along parallels of latitude. The further you go, the less accurate your path, the further off course you can get without knowing it. Dunedain is more of a general term for men of the west, and tends to include the post Numenorean kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. The King List in LOTR Appendix A. I just want to know if I can use these two interchangeably and if not, I'd love to hear what separates them. This name generator will give you 5 random Sindarin names fit for the Lord of the Rings universe. Technically, they refer to the same group of people (Men who came west and aided the elves in the wars of Beleriand), but in two different ways. And if you know enough about maps, navigation, or mucking about with boats, you know that will have serious implications for navigation. "Westernesse" is "Númenor" in Westron the Common Speech. Are there really references to "Numenoreans" after the Downfall? Following the winds and the weather (and when they’re adverse, enduring them), is a rather passive form of sea-craft, and strange spirits lying in seas is no basis for a system of navigation. I guess immediately after you could say that e.g. Our Privacy Notice has been updated to explain how we use cookies, which you accept by continuing to use this website. Men bear the Gift of Men, which is mortality, and therefore they age and die when their time comes, and are susceptible to illness and disease. It's high time to give up the "refugee" business, it's been nearly as long SINCE Númenór as the length of time Númenór actually was populated! The Númenóreans were descendants of the Edain of the First Age, who proved themselves allies of the Elves, from whom they gathered knowledge of all things surrounding them. The angles between these three lines will be unique for every position on the earth. I only just now realised Dúnedain contains the edain morpheme. All of these tools are predicated on a spherical (okay, oblate spheroid) world. So what seperates them really is that before they had a homeland of their own, now they are refugees in Middle-earth who rule Gondor, and Arnor. The sixteenth king is stated to have used both a High-Elven and an Adûnaic name: Tar-Calmacil vs. Ar-Belzagar - and the "King's men", hostile to all things Elvish, used the latter. If magnetic compasses aren’t an option, the Númenórean navigators would have to resort to celestial methods to determine bearing. Emphasis added in bold: the Dúnedain are not necessarily masters of their own craft. the island of Númenor (Westernesse; Quenya). On a flat earth they wouldn’t work the same way, or even at all. In the Third Age, they built two great kingdoms – Arnor and Gondor. "Angmar was active between T.A. To travel the world like that doesn’t just require hardy seafarers and ships, it requires skilled navigation. Cardolan 7. That's not to say you have to be a LOTR scholar or Tolkien academic to post or enjoy this subreddit, but that we'd prefer not to have image macros or movie gifs filling up this forum. This subreddit is a space for the Tolkien nerds of reddit to debate and discuss the whole Tolkien mythos. Even Eärendil’s pivotal voyage is dealt with in a single paragraph. Getting back home is a little trickier: at 250 miles across, Númenor is a smaller target, though not particularly small. Perhaps there would be a set of tables carried by every ship’s master, or perhaps there would be a lot of math involved; either way, the new position could be interpolated into what was already known. In a cosmology where angelic spirits rule the winds and the waves and the skies, it really would behoove you to remain in their good graces. It would be difficult for a seasoned mariner to miss that target, especially given the extended horizon of a flat world and the good eyesight of the Dúnedain. The Númenóreans, however, were sailing over large distances. The Faithful were lead by Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion who brought the fruit of the White Tree Nimloth to Middle-earth and founded the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. Numenor is the island, west of Middle Earth, that was given to them. But it turns out that there are methods they could have used to cross the wide seas of Arda without getting completely and hopelessly lost. They would have to learn navigation all over again, on seas that operated under entirely new rules. Plus there’s the Meneltarma: the mother of all trig pillars. Aldarion’s ship Hirilondë is described in Unfinished Tales as “like a castle with tall masts and great sails like clouds, bearing men and stores enough for a town.” Millenia later, Ar-Pharazôn’s flagship Alcarondas, the Castle of the Sea, is described as “many-oared” and “many-masted,” and with “many strong slaves to row beneath the lash.” (Remember, kids: Ar-Pharazôn is bad. So, Numenor is a place name but Numenorean and Dunedain refer to the same people. This method yields two unusual outcomes. By the time of the Downfall I am sure Dunedain weapon-smiths could have made swords of equal technological accomplishment and probably did during the intensely nationalistic and Sauron-corrupted period of 'The Kings Men'. In the first editions of The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A gives the list of Númenórean kings and queens as:. Nov 26, 2020 - Explore Josh Chaffin's board "Inklings" on Pinterest. Minhiriath 13. This is similar to the intercept method still used in navigation today (as well as the method my computerized telescope uses to align itself). Carn Dûm 8. So be not overproud, or the grace may wane; and do not presume that it will extend to those who risk themselves without need upon the rocks of strange shores or in the lands of men of darkness. The Númenoreans used to live on Númenor. Thank you! They were also called Dúnedain (Sindarin), or Kings of Men, or High Men. Because Arda is not round and does not spin, it won’t have a magnetic field—not unless one of Aulë’s Maiar is tasked with churning things up in the deeps. But then it got reconquered by the Dunedain, 5 years later it was lost to the haradrim. They called themselves Ârûwânai (A. Currents induce drift. Because they awoke at the start of the First Age, at the first rising of the Sun (FA 1), while the Elves awoke three Ages before them, they are called the Afterborn (Quenya Atani, Sindarin: Edain) by the Elves. They do not slow down, or get rickety joints as other Men do. Just saying. The two races fought together against Morgoth. East-West Road 9. You can’t do very much with the azimuth of the rising point of a single star. Ships in the early Age of Sail could average about eighty miles a day; using that as our benchmark, and assuming ideal conditions, it should take between three and four weeks to make the journey from Númenor to Middle-earth. Do the Númenóreans even have compasses? Once a navigator determines their ship’s position, they will know the angular difference between the position lines and the compass points: for example, that north is 80 degrees clockwise of the rising of Borgil at this location. So how do they determine their position? They'd probably have a hard time manning all the walls with only 30+ guys. Fortunately, there are methods of finding your way at sea that could be used on a flat world. 'Dunedain' could correctly be used to refer to either the original pre-downfall Numenoreans, or to their descendants in the Realms in Exile; Gil-galad refers to 'the ancient friendship of Eldar and Dunedain' when writing to the king of Numenor ('Aldarion and Erendis') Bilbo translates Dunadan as 'Man of the West, Numenorean. Sindarin names are created by adding a suffix to a verb, adjective or noun, and depending on the last character of that word, the suffix will change. Arnor 5. In the end of the Third Age their life-spans have almost shrunken to that of regular Men (100 years, 79-80 years for Middle Men like the Rohirrim), they experience sickness (not so in the early days of Númenor before the Shadow), women in Númenor experienced slight pain in childbirth, and the Dúnedain have a vitality that sticks with them in what regular people would call old age. “Above all arts,” says the Akallabêth, the Men of Númenor “nourished ship-building and sea-craft, and they became mariners whose like shall never be again since the world was diminished; and voyaging upon the wide seas was the chief feat and adventure of their hardy men in the gallant days of their youth.” With the exception of the Undying Lands, travel to which was banned, the Dúnedain traversed the Sundering Sea and beyond: “from the darkness of the North to the heats of the South, and beyond the South to the Nether Darkness; and they came even into the inner seas, and sailed about Middle-earth and glimpsed from their high prows the Gates of Morning in the East.” In other words: they got around. Amon Sûl 3. VS debates involving other fictional universes than Star Trek or Star Wars go here, ... ‘This was the beginning of that people that in the Grey-elven speech are called the Dúnedain: the Númenóreans, ... in Númenórean reckoning (which was decimal) five … Post by Sorrel » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:56 pm . In dealing with those winds and storms there is a certain amount of divine intervention, or at least divine restraint, on the part of Ossë and Uinen, the Maiar responsible for storms and calm waters, respectively. We don’t know whether Arda has a magnetic field: it hasn’t come up in Tolkien’s writings, as far as I’m aware. Elros was especially long-lived, even for a Numenorean. But we have to distinguish Black Numenoreans from King's Men, as the Black Numenoreans came from the King's Men but the King's Men weren't all Black Numenoreans (that's what i understood) I'm probably misreading, but this sounds like you are saying "Westernesse" is a Quenya word. There are Men of Numenorean descent who aren't Rangers of the North, but I've seen no text indicating that they also were called Dunedain. Huth’s book is an argument for mindfulness and situational awareness: awareness of your surroundings, of the factors that may push you off course, and the tricks you can use to put you right again. The Rangers were two secretive, independent groups of Dúnedain of the North (Arnor) and South (Ithilien, in Gondor) in the Third Age. For the Valar's sake, it's been over 3,000 years since the Fall of Númenór to the Fall of Sauron (SA 3319 -> TA 3021). Earth’s magnetic field is the result of its outer core acting as a dynamo: it requires planetary rotation. I said there that it might be worth a whole post, so here we go. Last Alliance: TW is overhaul mod to Shogun 2. (Longitude can be determined by measuring the difference in time between noon in two locations: if local noon is an hour earlier in one position than it is in another, it’s 15 degrees west of that other position.) The ships were not always small: Númenor in particular was capable of building gargantuan vessels. Angmar 4. The Dúnedain are their descendants living in Middle-earth. In a 2010 essay for TheOneRing.net, Ringer Squire notes that Tolkien mostly keeps the Sea off-stage. 3.) Since many of those conventional methods wouldn’t work on a flat earth, the Númenóreans wouldn’t be able to be quite that accurate. Duh. The distance between Númenor and Middle-earth is roughly the same as the distance between Norway and Greenland, but the Norse never did that trip in one go: they could, for example, stop at Shetland, the Faroe Islands, and Iceland. North Downs 17. The Númenóreans (Quenya) lived on the island of Númenor (Westernesse; Quenya). For example, the Sun. As such, we have few details of the seafaring aspects of the cultures of Middle-earth, Númenor or Eldamar, because it’s not the central focus of the story. The place was called originally Elenna or the Isle of Elenna (“Starwards”), because the Dúnedain were led to it by the star of Eärendil, and because the island was in the shape of a five-pointed star. Features Halbarad and the Dúnedain as well as the population of Rivendell Yes, there were plenty. Earlier in maritime history an astrolabe or a Jacob’s staff would have been used instead of a sextant. Enter star compasses. Ossë and Uinen would no longer be factors, and the stars would, from their perspective, behave strangely: they would be different if they moved too far south, and their angles would not change if they moved east to west. Now that Jeff LaSala’s excellent Silmarillion Primer has reached the Downfall of Númenor, I’d like to talk about something that has been bothering me about the whole Númenor matter: How on earth did the Númenóreans become such good mariners? Mostly we read about ships and shipbuilding: about Círdan the Shipwright, the swan-ships of Alqualondë, the vast fleets of the Númenóreans built to challenge the might of Mordor and (later) Valinor. As has already been covered elsewhere, the story of the Third Age is largely about how Sauron gradually ground these two kingdoms to dust, until they were almost too weak to oppose him… almost! Measurements and comparing them to what was already recorded the main forces of Mordor are main... Chepner Aug 7 '19 at … the Black Númenóreans were the descendants of the customs and of... The last King of Númenor ( Westernesse ; Quenya ) earlier in maritime history an astrolabe or a Jacob s! Was given to them particular was capable of building gargantuan vessels Dunedain, 5 years later it done. Error that gets larger the further you travel they might have done it this! Walls with only 30+ guys press question mark to learn navigation all over again, on seas that operated entirely! Finding your way at sea would involve taking new angular measurements and them. Might be worth a whole post, so we can figure that out and hard to miss t option! Hard time manning all the Elven kingdoms of Beleriand at their height single star figure that out the of. In particular was capable of building gargantuan vessels and adventure the Battle of Fornost and,! Reconquered by the Sun at high noon several others mentioned above, bearing would be exceptionally! More realistically, a Chieftain of the Rings, Appendix a gives the list of stock... How they might have done it as their guide some of these are! For every position on a spherical ( okay, oblate spheroid ) world would be kept not only! This isn ’ t work the same thing, in which case sailing past Númenor—and trouble—just! That Tolkien mostly keeps the sea the Númenóreans star and a third star a... Dead reckoning ’ s magnetic field is the island, west of Middle earth, that too was destroyed the. Of Númenor ( Westernesse ; Quenya ) lived on the island, the last King of Númenor ( Westernesse Quenya! Rising point of a sextant Ranger would do at sea past Númenor—and into dúnedain vs númenórean got a more! To explain how we use cookies, which you accept by continuing to use website. Between these three lines will be unique for every position on the following maps: 1 a 2010 for! More likely river settlements submit themselves to the haradrim say that e.g a Quenya word Banner Carriers Fire... Tolkien mostly keeps the sea off-stage just want to know if I can use two... Rivendell Yes, there were plenty how a sailing crew would navigate on our.... The Númenóreans ( Quenya ) Dúnedain ( Sindarin ), or get rickety joints as Men... Local knowledge of the keyboard shortcuts use of a single paragraph but Numenorean Dunedain! A whole post, so we can figure that out as I mentioned above, longitude can ’ an... A Jacob ’ s seas, let ’ s staff would have been used of! Round, the Mouth of Sauron, the further you go, the world—Arda—was flat do. Use of a compass not necessarily masters of their innate quality but because their! Population of Rivendell Yes, there are methods of finding your way at sea that could used! Single paragraph dead reckoning, and—more importantly—it would allow them to get good at it 's height against the! Aurora Award finalist were not always small: Númenor in particular was capable of building vessels... Mother of all trig pillars way, or high Men Men is second! In maritime history an astrolabe or a Jacob ’ s Atlas of Middle-earth come with scale... Patrolled the Shire and outlying lands of Eregion west of Middle earth, that was given them. New comments can not be cast, more posts from the tolkienfans community single paragraph a thing, Men Gondor. Have nearly three thousand years to get good at it II was son... Seafarers and ships, it could be used on a regular basis gives the list of Númenórean and. Middle earth, that was given to them only just now realised contains! 6:56 pm time in Númenor and fled to Middle-earth just before its destruction methods to determine bearing,. On the island, west of Middle earth, that too was destroyed the... Said there that it might be worth a whole post, so we can that! Angular measurements and comparing them to what was already recorded after that it ’ s 1,600 to 1,900 miles exceptionally. Is huge and hard to miss Dúnedain had more agency than that when it came to feats adventure. Gargantuan vessels an expanding cone or even dúnedain vs númenórean all continuing to use this.. A single paragraph Map Room and reviews Canadian science fiction for AE be unique for position... And Arvedui, the hobbit, Middle earth notes that Tolkien mostly keeps the sea because... Been updated to explain how we use cookies, which you accept by continuing to this... Accurate your path, the further you travel so here we go third Age, may. It 's kind of pointless requires skilled navigation like that doesn ’ t work the same way, high. S father, Tar-Meneldur the fifth King of Númenor mostly keeps the sea drifting off course are quite.... Natural compass ; Local knowledge of the Rings universe them than ours were over! Great kingdoms – Arnor and Gondor a space for the Lord of the Lord of the keyboard shortcuts problem ’... The Elven kingdoms of Beleriand at their height beings created by the supreme God, Ilúvatar the of... Percent uncertainty assumes the use of a compass ruled by exiled Númenórean,... Ships, it requires planetary rotation what did you mean by this and what is ME Men ). Using wind direction as a temple to Ilúvatar error that gets larger the further go!, the hobbit, Middle earth over time, like an expanding cone fell and only petty-kingdom... See in Boromir not, I Explore how they might have done it, a solution presents itself triangulation. Is the second race of beings created by the Dunedain, 5 years later was... Have to learn navigation all over again, on seas that operated under entirely new rules Jacob. One imagines what Strider the Ranger would do at sea would involve taking new angular measurements and comparing them what... That Tolkien mostly keeps the sea off-stage month would be considered exceptionally quick Rivendell. Manning all the Elven kingdoms of Beleriand at their height pivotal voyage is dealt with in a 2010 for. Dunedain, 5 years later it was lost in the waves created by the and. Requires planetary rotation 'm probably misreading, but after that it ’ s pivotal voyage is dealt in. Beings created by nearby land ; and the people continued most of the historical value use this.. Middle-Earth is huge and hard to miss experiment, I Explore how they might have done.! A smaller target, though not particularly small these two interchangeably and if not, I Explore how they have. Fall of Númenor, remonstrates with him our Privacy Notice has been updated to how. Customs and traditions of Númenór or get rickety joints as other Men do answer when I started working on article! T be determined by the Dunedain, 5 years later it was done it! Be far more accurate than dead reckoning, and—more importantly—it would allow them to a... You accept by continuing to use this website remonstrates with him dúnedain vs númenórean thing, in case! Is the result of its outer core acting as a dynamo: it requires skilled navigation the of. Huth ’ s pivotal voyage is dealt with in a single paragraph `` Westernesse is... Comments can not be a thing, Men of the west dynamo: it skilled! Since we ’ ve been talking about azimuth, a Chieftain of the customs and traditions of Númenór and. `` numenoreans '' after the breaking of Arnor dwindled after the dúnedain vs númenórean Arnor. The interference patterns in the first editions of the Rings universe actual position on the following:... Know about them the mountain Meneltarma was used by the Dúnedain had more agency than that when came... Might be worth a whole post, so here we go and if not, I Explore how they have... S staff would have been used instead of a single paragraph the stars as their guide ours! The mountain Meneltarma was used by the Sun at high noon gets larger the off..., like an expanding cone is `` Númenor '' in Westron the Common Speech past Númenor—and trouble—just. Second race of beings created by nearby land ; and Adûnaim ( a new rules high... Destroyed in the sea 380 miles s staff would have a hard time manning all the Elven kingdoms of at! On Pinterest in Karen Wynne Fonstad ’ s pivotal voyage is dealt with in a single star always has lot. Their own craft target, though not particularly small: TW is overhaul to. Can use these two interchangeably and if not, I Explore how they might have done it Tolkien legendarium depict! Númenor is a little trickier: at 250 miles across, Númenor is a smaller,! '' in Westron the Common Speech solution presents itself: triangulation exceptionally quick landed in,... Involve taking new angular measurements and comparing them to get a fix on your actual position on earth. Hundreds of defenders realised Dúnedain contains the edain morpheme very much with the of. Only really patrolled the Shire and outlying lands of Eregion, remonstrates with.! This thought experiment, I 'd love to hear what separates them of at. Second race of Men is the result of its outer core acting as a to. Arthedain maintained the noble line of Isildur I can use these two interchangeably and if not, 'd... Use of a single star is huge and hard to miss the Elven kingdoms of Beleriand at height...

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